According to the respected American Civil Liberties Union, Donald Trump's four years in the White House have been like the intensity of life during wartime.
The group filed its first lawsuit against the Trump administration on January 28, 2017, just eight days after President Trump took office and one day after he announced his first attempt to ban travelers from several Muslim-majority countries from entering the United States. .
The pace of the organization's legal fight against Trump has never stopped. Ultimately, the ACLU filed more than 250 lawsuits against the Trump administration on a variety of issues, including immigration, abortion, contraception, fair housing, and the rights of racial justice protesters who were forcibly dispersed around the White House by federal troops.
Like environmental groups, media outlets, and other institutions on the center-left of American politics, the ACLU has experienced new relevance and visibility in the Trump era. The organization's staff has roughly doubled and its budget has nearly tripled during Trump's presidency, fueled by persistent calls for “resistance” from many voters and donors shocked by Trump's election and dismayed by his actions. It grew, and membership quadrupled. The ACLU won some big cases (overturning Trump's policies that separated immigrant parents from their children and blocked his efforts to add a citizenship question to the census) and lost others (the Supreme Court overturned two cases). eventually supported Trump's third attempt at a Muslim ban). previous iteration). This fight put the ACLU at the center of the political stage nearly 100 years after its founding in 1920.
In an interview last week, Anthony D. Romero, the ACLU's longtime executive director, said protecting civil liberties would become more difficult if Trump wins a second term in November. I discuss the challenges a re-elected Trump could pose for rights and liberties, how the ACLU is already working with other advocacy groups to develop a plan to fight Trump's agenda in the courts, and why Romero wants the legal fight to be a priority for other advocates. We spoke with Romero about whether he thinks it's less important than the group. Public protests aimed at determining what American democracy will look like in 2029 if Trump wins.
The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
Ronald Brownstein: Looking at both what Trump has already explicitly said and what is unfolding as a template in red states, what are you most concerned about in terms of civil rights and civil liberties in a second term for Trump?
Anthony D. Romero: Our biggest concerns relate to areas where Donald Trump already has a track record. Obviously, we expect him to double down on his focus on immigration issues. This is the core of his “Make America Great Again” ideology. The Muslim ban was the first executive order he signed.
We can expect the militarization of borders, bans on transit to third countries, closure of asylums, and more. This time, it is highly likely that they will keep their promise to create a deportation force and carry out deportation nationwide. So immigration will be front and center.
The second problem is abortion. Because abortion fuels Republican politics. Trump is already toying with the idea of a federal abortion ban. I haven't decided yet whether it's 14 or 15 weeks. But it's clear that's the direction his own party will take.
Braunstein: Will he also come under greater pressure within his party over the administration's actions on abortion?
Romero: correct. Whether it's mifepristone, the Comstock Act, or restrictions on the U.S. Postal Service.
Surely he will address another of the Republicans' culture war complaints. namely, limiting gender-affirming health care for transgender people; attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion; Attack on birthright citizenship. When he first ran for office he said that was his goal, but he did nothing about it. That seems more likely this time. Birthright citizenship is not only at the heart of immigration issues, but also at the heart of race relations and racial justice. This is how the United States converted African slaves into American citizens. It is the sacred ground of the civil rights community, and it is an invitation to trample all over it.
The final bucket set involves weaponizing the Justice Department to go after political enemies. The Insurrection Act was used threateningly to curtail protests. Threats to mobilize police and even the National Guard to deal with crime in the Blue City. He will want to pick fights in blue-state jurisdictions and use the power of the federal government to do so.
Braunstein: Another area of immigration is allowing red states to enforce their immigration laws.
Romero: I think he will try to enact restrictive policies. for them. But if he gives red states carte blanche to do what they want, it will be difficult for him to prevent blue states from enacting sanctuary city laws. Consistency has never been an obstacle for Trump, but from a legal theory standpoint, I'm not sure he would want to abandon the preeminence of the executive branch by allowing state governors to usurp the role of the federal government. . I think he would love to take on that role himself.
Braunstein: Why do you think this term might be more difficult than his first term?
Romero: I don't think any Republican adults will be in the room with him this time. I think only the most zealous and ideological players will join a second Trump administration, and the institutionalists and establishment figures who have curtailed his worst abuses will remain in exile even while in power.
Health issues aside, Mitch McConnell's retirement points to this very issue. Institutionalists and establishment Republicans will not form the executive branch and cabinet as they used to. Stephen Miller is closer to the norm than the exception.
I think then they'll be smarter and more experienced, so they'll be more effective the second time around. They won't make rookie mistakes like the Muslim ban. That means it will take you three attempts to complete it. I think he campaigned and [lack of focus] The chronic problems of Trump One could be alleviated through greater discipline and greater focus in the second.
Braunstein: In an interview in which Miller described their plans for mass deportation in astonishing detail, he also said: We will be doing so many things at once that no one will be able to cope. And that's part of the strategy.
Romero: I don't doubt it. And in a way, they finally realized that they had the size of the federal government on their side. Given the incredible asymmetry between the power of the federal government and the power of civil society, it has always been a bit surprising to me that we were able to make as much progress as possible in Trump's first term.
Braunstein: Do you think the Supreme Court will serve as a bulwark for civil liberties?
Romero: I'm worried, but I think we have to do our best. At this point all we need to do is get five. [votes on the Supreme Court]And the point in any case or argument is that two different judges can strip it. [to join the three Democratic-appointed justices]? I have no intention of giving up the ghost of litigation in a second Trump administration. In some ways, all we have to do is survive the next four years. We don’t have to survive eight years of Trump. All we have to do is play his final four years. Because that's all he has.
Braunstein: What do you think is the most unsettling or provocative of his proposals? It seems to me that the different ways in which he talks about using federal forces in the Blue City are the most explosive.
Romero: clearly. The deportation force could implicate 11 to 13 million undocumented people. Remember that undocumented people live in families and communities with many U.S. citizens, so if you start kicking out people without legal documentation, the level of disruption could be enormous.
Certainly, the power of the National Guard and the use of the Insurrection Act placed many incredibly worrying things at his fingertips. That's why I think the lawsuit will be important. Litigation maintains the status quo, litigation takes time, and buying time is a good thing.
Lawsuits also help focus public attention. Part of what happened during the first Trump administration was that the landslide and outrage of Trump's policies became a bit desensitizing to the public at one level, but lawsuits were able to really focus the spotlight on key policies. Family separation is the example I like to use. Our lawsuit caused such a public outcry that Trump himself had to rescind the policy.
But the role of lawyers will become much less important in a second Trump administration, as much more consistent and greater attacks on civil liberties and human rights are expected. This is where we need to transform the public into protagonists rather than spectators. And you saw those elements in the first Trump administration. The Women's March was largely a spontaneous explosion of energy from voters. Certainly, the George Floyd protests in the summer of 2020, in the midst of a global pandemic, were also an indication that people are willing to take to the streets for issues that really matter to them. I have to believe that we have the potential to mobilize the public in that way. One of the things we have to do is prepare for the kind of energy and activism that we cannot control. That is, training to know your rights, what we must do as legal observers of protests.
Braunstein: Is it in progress?
Romero: We started making plans about what to do and how to build relationships.
Braunstein: If Trump wins, I don't know if he will do everything he says. But if he practices even two-thirds of what he says, what will blue-state governors like JB Pritzker, Gavin Newsom, and Cathy Hochul do? What does that attorney general do? If Trump follows through on the idea of using federal troops in blue jurisdictions, how much pressure could he put on the country's fundamental cohesion?
Romero: The real wild card is the degree to which it devolves into chaotic chaos or even violence, in which case Trump's use of executive power will seem more justified in the eyes of ordinary Americans. Remember the play he did [sending federal forces to quell the 2020 protests in] Portland? There were elements of Trump's actions in Portland that resonated with the American public. In some ways, the greatest risk is when Trump's extreme policies provoke a common-sense response from the American people, when he is acting as a true populist. I think that's the most dangerous thing.
Braunstein: How much has America changed after four years of President Trump being in power? And what do you think are the most important differences we might face now?
Romero: I think we could be on the verge of losing democracy and losing certain rights and freedoms that would be lost for a generation. I am not one for exaggeration, especially when faced with a real threat, but rather one for trying to reduce protests and demonstrations. a promise to institute a Gestapo-like search and deport force; Enacting federal bans on reproductive rights, gender-affirming care, or diversity and inclusion efforts could fundamentally change how we think about rights and freedoms in America.
Right now, we deplore the idea that our zip code determines our rights and freedoms. If I were 10010 (my zip code) in New York, I would actually enjoy far more rights and freedoms than I would if I were in a zip code in Alabama or Mississippi. And the second challenge for the Trump administration is that rights and freedoms may be lost even in blue states. We already live in a status quo of curtailing rights and freedoms in red states, but perhaps most concerning is the shift toward blue states and liberal, progressive jurisdictions.